Dec 6, 2013 12:00am PST
mandela has died at age 95. here is the president of the united states. >> at his trial in 1964, nelson mandela chose a statement from the dock saying i have fought against white domination and i have fought against black domination. i've cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. it is an ideal which i hope to live for and to achieve. but if needs be, it is an ideal for which i am prepared to die. nelson mandela lived for that ideal and he made it real. he achieved more than could be expected of any man. and today he's gone home. we've lost one of the most influential, courageous and profoundly good human being that any of us will know in the short time on this earth. he no longer belongs to us, he belongs to the ages. through his fierce dignity and unbending will to sacrifice his own freedom for the freedom of others, madiba transformed south africa and moved all of us. his journey from a prisoner to a president embodied the promise that human beings and countries can change for the better. the commi
Dec 7, 2013 8:00pm EST
death of nelson mandela with the cbs evening news. >> he was born july 18, 1918. his mother gave him a name meaning "troublemaker," but later a school teacher in nelson. he moved to johannesburg at 23. he became one of the nation's first black lawyers and joined the opposition african national congress in the early 1940's, devoting himself to peacefully ending apartheid. then in 1960, peaceful black demonstrators were killed by white south african police in the infamous massacre. mandela came to believe then that the only recourse was violence. >> it is futile for us to continue talking peace and nonviolence against a government whose reply is only savage attacks on an unarmed and defenseless people. >> he was arrested and sentenced to life for sabotage and conspiracy. he served most of his life on robben island, the alcatraz of south africa. a fellow prisoner said mandela never let his spirit die. >> he accepted that he may not live to see the victory. but he did not doubt that the freedom struggle would triumph. >> mandela was imprisoned for 27 years. on february 11, 1990, at the age
Dec 9, 2013 10:00pm EST
>> from our studios in new york, this is "charlie rose." >> that there be work, bread, water, for all. let freedom reign. god bless africa. i thank you. >> nelson mandela, the former president of south africa, died today. mandiba was a man for all seasons. his life gave meaning to millions. after his release from prison in 1990, he was awarded the nobel peace prize and served as president for five years. the power of mandela could not be captured in a snapshot. it was also the man himself. he was a quiet man in many ways, but with great power to influence. a father of six who is also a father of a nation, a country, and a philosophy. he was born in 1918 in a small village of the eastern cape of south africa. his work against apartheid policies grew in the coming years. in 1963, he was put on trial for plotting to overthrow the government with pilots. he said at the trial, i have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. it is an ideal which i hope to live for and to achieve. but if i need be, it is an ideal for which i am prepared to die. after he stepped down as president, he worked tirelessly to promote his agenda of equality. he wanted to engage in quiet reflection. he is survived by his wife, graca machel, and three children. joining me now is a close friend of mandela's. rick stengel was the author of "long walk to freedom." we will also be joined by david dinkins. you knew him 25 years. godfather to your daughter. >> 22 years. >> tell me how they are handling this. >> i think it is clear to see that, especially with respect to mrs. machel, is a unified women. they have been graceful through this process. ofre is a profound sense saddness. you finally get the word that the chief is gone, it is overwhelming. i think there is an equal amount of joy in festivity. now this major event has happened. i think the family is actually very dignified and holding up well. >> what we know about what is going to happen between now and the funeral day? >> there are a series of protocols that have been put into place that the south african government are executing. on the 10th, there will be a huge rally. the funeral is on the 15th. i would anticipate is one of the largest gatherings of heads of state in modern history. you may even see more at the state attended nelson mandela's funeral than john f. kennedy's. there will be more protocol put in because of madiba's extended illness. there was a lot more time to plan. >> he had said that he wanted a quiet exit, but when he was in pretoria hospital, it was anything but quiet. but he did get to have that quiet when he went back with family, or not? >> we said our goodbyes it while back. he has not been himself for a number of years. it was unclear how involved he was in any of these preparations. the man we know would have said, i don't want a big funeral. just take me to where my ancestors are. i think he was a little disingenuous about that. he was of two minds. he would be, why such a small funeral? i don't think that he would approve of the government of south africa using the funeral to exhibit the confidence of south africa. -- the fact that south africa democracy.modern >> there is the legend, there is the myth of mandela, there was the mandela that you knew, and it was the mandela that new who and what he was and had time to reflect on it. tell me about the man. >> i talked a lot. i even talk to you about the myth of him being a saint. he hated being called that. he was not a saint for all kinds of reasons, in terms of his own private behavior, which does not even matter, but he was not a saint because he was ultimately a pragmatic politician. people compare him to gandhi, martin luther king. he said to me, for those men, nonviolence was a principal. for me, nonviolence was a tactic. i used it as long as it was successful. when it's stopping successful, i turned the anc into a military armed wing. my great goal was freedom and justice for my people. anything that would get me there would be what road i would take. that is a pragmatic politician. that is not a saint. >> i agree with that. he was very pragmatic. one of my reflections after 20 plus years was how real he was. if you saw him flirtatious, or joyful, or festive, or playful, it was that way when he was behind the scenes or in front of the camera. but when he went out on a public appearance, he was fully aware of how he was being projected, how he was moving. i'll tell you an interesting story towards the end, when the world cup was there. we walked in to have a little personal time with him and he said to me, how did we do? that is an amazing comment. he was so interested in how the country reflected around the world, of the image reflected. i would talk to him about -- you know, there was a lot of time in between protocols and him between business where you are aiming out for four hours, five hours at a time. and i would say, what was it like? he can be very sweet, very insightful. >> he had the right touch whether you were four or 94. >> think the principle of robben island was missed, when he said what do you miss? the number one thing that all the prisoners said was the laughter of children. when madiba got out of prison and saw what his new wife was involving, he was just joyful. the nelson mandela children's fund was never work for him. all those appearances, and i had been with him many times, he just loved children. you'd walk out of the house and the security detail would be furious with him, you go for a walk and ring people's doorbells. he would open the door and he would say hi, i am nelson mandela. >> i knew him long enough ago when people did not know him when he rang the doorbells. >> this was what year? >> 1992 and 1993. when we stayed outside of where he built his house, we would take these very long early morning walks, and i mean early, 4:30 a.m., 5:00 a.m., and we would walk to different villages. people did not know who we was. they thought he was a visiting chief. he loved it. he could not love it more when someone did not recognize him. to bear jerry out, i think he is better with four-year-olds the 94-year-olds. [laughter] he loved children and he loved holding them. there is a wonderful story that not many people know. on the day of his release, february 11, he was supposed to give a speech. his car got lost. they said, how do we get back to downtown cape town? there was a white woman with a pram wheeling her baby along the sidewalk. the car door open, nelson mandela popped out, the date of his release, and he said, i am nelson mandela. may i hold your baby? he took this adorable girl in his arms, and then asked directions to the grand parade? he had not held a baby and 27 years. >> years later, he wanted to go on vacation, but he wanted to go where the family could be quiet and not been nelson mandela. we get a call that night. it is a very emotional call. the family is very excited because it is the first time he had ever set foot in the ocean, put his foot in the ocean. >> and he is like 70 something years old? >> it'd been like 40 years, he had never been in the ocean. by that time, his legs were hard to move and stuff like that. he was just so boyish with the fact that he got to walk in the ocean. >> no one knows what it is to be imprisoned and have none of those things. things we just consider part of life, foot in the ocean, holding a baby. did he choose history or did history choose him? >> more than most. i'm a big fan of the expression, come at the moment, come at the man. when young nelson mandella first came to study law, he walked into a real estate office. he said we were trying to become a mass movement. and then one day a mass leader came into my office. he was tall, handsome. one thing you would said, that man could smile. people do not smile in the 50's. look at pictures of politicians no one is smiling. nelson mandela was beaming. he was ahead of his time. >> what would he talk about? >> it was interesting. you can lead him in certain directions. we got to a point of intimacy where he was used to you being around. he was very principled. if you talk out of turn, you could bet the figure would be waiting you. you could say to him, were you lonely? what did you miss? what happened was he said, sometimes i feel more lonely now than i did when i was in robben island. you would work all day long. there were times when you go to the house to pick him up and he would be sitting alone in a chair. it was a great, great responsibility. i want to say that when he first got out of prison he had to go to a dinner one night. one of his friends pick him up in the car and had to drive him to a dinner. you realize that he had no money. so he stopped with mandella and went over to an atm and put the card in. mandela some money coming out of a wall. [laughter] he did not know what an atm was. he said to the guy, what was that? >> it was a cute thing. at his inauguration we had the privilege of doing a heads of state luncheon. i thought it would be clever to take that picture that everyone is showing him in a swearing-in on the day. i held open three photo labs in pretoria. we had 1500 copies of this made. after we served the soup course, we said, thank you for attending the first democratically free presidential inauguration. we put picture. when i went to show madiba it was only a few minutes before. he looked at it like a boy, astonished. really sweet. >> how did you become the co- author of his autobiography? >> i had written a book on south africa. when mandela was signed up for the autobiography, someone was being looked for to write it. i then asked if i would do it, and it was an offer i could not refuse, no one could refuse. it was most extraordinary. >> what do you think he would like us to be talking about? >> i think he would like us to be talking about how south africa can grow and progress and evolve after he is gone. he had set the template for democratic, non-racial, capitalistic country that will thrive in the 21stentury. i think that is what he would like us to talk about. one of things i noticed in all the interviews we did -- he was self-consciously modest. i would say, when you did this, and he would say, no, it was us, the anc. when i said, the anc did this, no, richard, that was me. [laughter] remember, the struggle is my life, he said. he wanted to make sure his country and people were provided for. >> your wife is from south africa? >> both from cape town. >> i got to meet him on his historic visit to new york. i helped out on the logistics. robert deniro and his generosity did a major reception party when he opened up the tribeca bar and grill. he said to me, before i go home to south africa, is there any way you could introduce me to elizabeth taylor? i didn't know her, but i knew michael jackson. i called michael jackson and said, can we introduce her when he goes to los angeles? michael said yes. he calls back later and says, elizabeth taylor would be happy to see mr. mandela, on the condition i come. i said, i can't promise that. let me ask you. i want to madiba and said, i don't really know elizabeth taylor, but michael jackson does and if she comes he was to accompany her. he said, that is fine, but who is michael jackson? [laughter] mehe said can you imagine tayler?elizabeth [laughter] >> when we were trying to change the image of south africa to come out of the apartheid era, one of the tactics we wanted to use was to show the beautiful visualizations of south africa up by getting on tv in many countries around the world. one of madiba's favorite things was when he would meet the 90 girls each year and then, after the second year when the tension of, is the logistic working, we played a little joke on him. we asked all the girls to wear bright colored lipstick. we have a picture of wary as like 40 kisses on his face with all the bright colored lipstick. >> joining us now is the honorable david dinkins, former mayor of new york. >> tell us what you remember of nelson mandela. >> i was a big fan. of course, he help me get elected as mayor. he was insistent that we could get nelson mandela to come to new york. terrific, if we can do it. this is the first place to which he came outside of south africa, was to the united states. he might well have gone to washington, or atlanta, a lot of other places. >> london. >> we were fortunate. he stayed here. when he stayed with my bride with me in gracie mansion. >> he was your guest. >> almost a week. he was the same whether playing with our grandchildren -- we had a granddaughter at that time. i think she was born in february and this was june. she was a little thing. he was the same man or whether questioned by ted koppel. ted koppel leaned in, and said, about the communists -- and madiba said, they were the only ones that helped us. and moved on. [laughter] >> let us talk about the women in his life. winnie and then graca machel. >> she was from a small family. evelyn. she was very young, he was a young man. they had three children quite quickly. as he became political, she became more religious. i think she was a seventh day adventist. he realized later, and said this about his mother as well. i was trying to bring a revolution to my country and educate my own people about democracy and freedom and i had not been able to do that to my wife and my mother. he felt that was a lack. they went their separate ways. it was a sad situation. then he met winnie. >> you look at young pictures of winnie mandela, a physically gorgeous woman full of strength and pride -- >> she was an activist. >> an activist in her own right. at that moment in time, they clicked and became an indelible force. with the celebration of all the documentation of mandela being imprisoned for 27 years, sometimes credit is not given to winnie about what she had to endure. those early years of prison, they would go to her house at 2:00 in the morning, shake her down, stripped searcher. a lot of people don't remember you talk about courage and strength, she was in solitary confinement for 18 months. after 27 years in prison, when you grow apart, winnie came out. everyone wanted a piece of him. it had to be lonely for both of them. to this day, i think there is a very great love between the two of them. she is a great lady. all of a sudden, he is now 79- 80. the wedding comes with mrs. machel. >> the widow of the president of mozambique. did you meet her? >> yes. i was embarrassed because the first time i met her, i didn't realize i had met her before. i said something stupid -- [laughter] and it was like, we've met before. she was very gracious and very sweet. but what an amazing man mandela is. every year, his birthday is i think the 18th of july and mine is the 10th. each year, i would send him a message, happy birthday, madiba. when you are 109, i will be 100 and we will meet and have a drink. i will get to do that anymore. anymore.o do that it's very sad. >> when was the last time you saw him? i guess it has been six or seven years, maybe. >> i was part of tony o'reilly's advisory group. >> the irish businessman. >> we used to go annually. we had two meetings, one in south africa in february and one in ireland. when we were in south africa, we would get to meet with madiba and later with others. it was on those occasions that i got to see him. >> there is a whole interesting tale there. his father was on robben island. i guess we can say it now they never got along. our memory was of him saying some things that were not as wonderfully flattering as you would like. he forced upon with tabo. there were two groups. there were those who would stayed, and the exiles. those were the old mainstream of the anc. mandela's advisors all wanted the old exiled group to come to power. mandela i think actually favored the interior people. he was not an authoritarian ruler, even within the anc. he was often outvoted by his comrades. i think he was outvoted there, too. >> last time you saw him? >> last year. >> he is the godfather of your daughter. >> he named her. he was very close with prudence. prudence, being a very prominent south african journalist. we went up to him and said we are couple, he looked at us like, what have you been up to? we asked if he would give us his blessing and be the best man. he said, it entitles me a child. he said that with that and get a baby. it took us nine years to have a baby. when the baby arrived, he was so excited. he was on vacation and he called up and said, i have named your child. ok. do want to tell the boss? she is here. what have you named her? what does it mean? "the one who has taken a long time to come." when she sees me, she will see i'm an old, feeble man and will start to cry. so we saw him a year ago. >> he had something to do with mohammed ali. to see the two of them together >> it was a very special night. i was visiting with him up at the waldorf. he was in rocky shape even then. i said, i have a night. you think i can see some of my friends before i go? robert de niro, the celebrated actor, people don't understand how generous he is and what a great philanthropist he is, but he hosted mandela at the request of our great mayor when he first came at the tribeca as part of the june visit. i said, you want to end it with us? on that may evening in 2005, it was a very sweet night and we reenacted the boxing picture with ali and him. it was a very sweet night. >> on one occasion, i was at a luncheon seated next to mohammed ali. when he spoke of the honorees, he said service to others is a rent that you pay for space on earth. i was so moved by that i wrote it down. i always use it now and i speak at a funeral or memorial. it fits nelson mandela so well service to others is the rent you pay for space on earth. i say, the deceased has paid in full. let them not look down and find is in arrears. back in a moment. ♪ >> the africans require, want the basis of one man, one vote. they want political independence. >> do you see the africans being able to develop in this country without the europeans being pushed out? >> south africa is a country of many races. there is room for all the races in this country. >> we look back at an interview i did with nelson mandela i did in 1993, 20 years ago. help us understand what it was like for you and how does a man maintain the strength, his belief, his integrity, on an island where he is been sentenced to life in prison? >> there is nothing as inspiring as to know that the ideas for which you have sacrificed will triumph in the end. one of the things that we are constantly aware of, 24 hours a day, was the fact that ideas of liberation were much alive. that our people inside the country were fighting back. that the international community, irrespective of the government, was empowering the country. that was a source of tremendous inspiration it kept the morale of all is very high. therefore we were -- in prison because of the knowledge that an car that our incarceration was not in vain and the possibility of is coming back to play our part as part of a greater aspect of the freedom fighters was always possible. this sustained us. also, to share these experiences with a man who was with me in prison. some of you who have cited. it was a tremendous experience. >> how about your vanity imprison? i mean that with the greatest respect. what was it like, having your garden? give us an idea of being in prison, with the goals you had, with the fight of people outside of prison. with the battles to come, what does small thing like a garden mean to you? >> well, there were moments when one doubted whether he had done the correct thing by abandoning your wife, your children, and literally throwing them to the wolves. that was a cause of constant concern on my part, to see my wife humiliated, how did by the police from job to job, threatening and forcing them to dismiss my wife. my children being babies, being hounded when they went to school. the authorities were compelled to dismiss them so they could go to an african school. the fact that i was not there to protect them, to guide my children. it is a terrible pain, indeed. but after agonizing over this, in the end, i had done the right thing. if i was released, and had the opportunity to do what i did, i would do it again. that is necessary for us to occupy ourselves during the day, to do the type of thing that you like. reading. >> what did you read? >> about gardening. creating life, see it growing and maturing into beautiful vegetables. that was an experience which elevated one. i liked reading political works. biographies and novels. i like to enjoy them. >> let me come back to the garden question. with respect to the garden, were you good at it? >> well, i was a student. at college, it was the task of the students to go and work for the members of the staff. i was fortunate enough to be able to work for members of the staff who had gardens. i looked up at the gardens. now i had the opportunity to read works on gardening and other publications dealing with farming. i became quite informed as far as gardening is concerned. but primarily for vegetables? >> primarily. >> what vegetables? >> i had a variety of vegetables, like tomatoes, spinach, onion -- >> could you eat them? >> yes. strawberries. i tried peanuts, but i was unsuccessful. >> why not? >> i did not have the technique. of planting them and cultivating them. >> but you had fertilizer and all the things? >> yes. >> did boxing make a difference? the fact you had been an amateur boxer? >> it taught me discipline. how to go forward. how to retreat. when the opposition is so strong that i could not overcome it. how to face your problems. >> that sounds like the lessons of either political or military warfare. when to flank, when to watch her flank, when to go forward, when to go on the defensive -- >> these are basic principles of boxing as a sport. you must, even before you actually don the gloves, you must have the basic rules of the game. to be able to advance, go forward, if you can put out your enemy, you must do so. in fighting, if your rival is superior, you stay out. you circle around, you concentrate on body punches and wear him down. you have to study your enemy before you go to the ring, but more important is to study him in the ring. >> and don't take your eyes off where his hands are. >> of course. it is a basic rule of the sport, but it is also a basic rule of the military. >> so if you are in the boxing metaphor, where are you? opponent? areour you in the 14th round? >> we are negotiating. and when you are negotiating in regards to a country, you're not thinking about victory. you're not thinking about victory for yourself. you don't want your opponent to be a loser. you are thinking of a victory for the people as a whole. south africa must have the victory. therefore, i would hesitate to see any political party weakened. i want all of the political parties involved in the negotiations to be strong so they can bring contingencies to the negotiation floor. so they can speak with one voice on the fundamental question of freedom. you don't, in negotiation, seek the type of victory you seek in a boxing match. >> you love your country more than you love anything? >> well, that is difficult. i have got a formula with children. >> it is almost like you are married to your country and destiny has made this marriage is and you have no choice. >> it is inconceivable for me to love anyone more than my children and my grandchildren. my daughter now and again says, i grew up without a father. my father was in prison. but, i entertain the hope that one day he would come back and i will have a father, like all other children. i would stop being an orphan during my father's lifetime. my father came out. he has now become the father of the nation. i still have no father. i have got a grandson. he is four. i asked him, on his birthday, what do you want me to buy for you? he said, i want a motorcar. we got out of the car. he was holding my hand, my left hand. we went into the shop. as we walked in, crowds milled around and they shook my hand. he left this hand and came to grab this hand. i said, you hold his hand? he said, no. he saw me greeting people with this hand. i stopped being his grandfather. i was now a grandfather of so many people he did not know. he was so upset that even when we entered the shop with the vehicles, he was no longer interested. that is the type of experience, a grandfather who was a grandfather not of my grandchild but of the people around. it was a very painful experience, but nevertheless we have to permit ourselves completely to the organization and the hope that the children and grandchildren will understand. >> so, the biggest pain for you has been for the children you did not have time for and now your family is as large as a nation? >> that is correct. this is an experience, of course, that affects thousands of freedom fighters. not only in the national african congress, but in other political formations as well. >> is it hard not to have a wife with you? >> to be with your wife is a tremendous source of confidence. but you have to trust to the situation. >> how painful was it? >> i usually talk very little about domestic matters, but she is a woman who supported me when hard times were knocking at my door. one of the difficult decisions to make was to leave the joint household and go and to establish myself elsewhere. >> difficult because of the sacrifice because of your imprisonment? >> i would prefer that we leave those issues aside, but it is correct that she supported me very strongly when i was in prison. >> one last question on that because it is such an issue. how do you view her today? >> she is entitled to her own political views. >> which is? >> whatever views she has, she is entitled. once we accept the democratic process, we must accept its full implications. they're entitled to have their own views, whatever i think of them. >> you have, at this moment, no reservation or indecision along with the council you have taken with your colleagues that the decisions made by you and them are right for south africa? the sacrifices, the tolls, the price you paid, the blood that has been spilled was necessary? painful but necessary? >> absolutely. we are an organization which, from its foundation, committed itself to building a nation through peaceful, nonviolent, and dissident struggle. we were forced to resort to arms by the regime and the lesson of history is that the masses of the people -- the political action they used is determined by the oppressor himself. the oppressed will never resort to violence. it is when the oppressed, in addition to policies, uses violence, they will retaliate by similar forms of action. therefore, the blood that was spilled, responsibility for that lies clearly on the shoulders of the regime. >> at the same time, you and the anc had acknowledged violence in the anc camps as well. >> we are perhaps the only organization, certainly in africa, and across the world that has had the courage and honesty to take the public into confidence. >> that is true. >> to say -- we set up that independent commission because we wanted to get to the bottom of this. when they gave the report, which looked at to the public and said to them, these are the findings of the commission. these are their recommendations. hardly any organization in our country has done that. when that report was released, they did not have the courage to publish it, to take the public into confidence. we have done something totally different. >> you certainly have. let me just end with this, because they told me i have to cut. one last notion -- april 27, 1994. free elections. black africans in south africa will express, for the first time, their political will. will that be the happiest day of your life? >> yes and no. yes, because, as i have already said, that is a day of liberation. when the people of south africa will be able to elect a government of their own choice, when they take their destiny into their hands and be able to run their own lives. no, because it may well be that it is going to be more difficult to maintain that democracy than it was to bring it into reality. there are going to be very awesome challenges, and it will really test the ability of those who are leading the democratic process in this country. >> nelson mandela, perhaps the most admired man in the world, died in south africa, age 95. ♪ >> live from new york. this is "bloomberg west." we are covering the global technology and media companies that are reshaping our world. i am cory johnson. our focus is on innovation, technology, and the future of business. let's get straight to the rundown. a coding lesson from mark zuckerberg. his video is one of many for students interested in the coding
Dec 7, 2013 10:00pm EST
>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." >> we begin our coverage of the death of nelson mandela with the cbs evening news. >> he was born july 18, 1918. his mother gave him a name meaning "troublemaker," but later a school teacher in nelson. he moved to johannesburg at 23. he became one of the nation's first black lawyers and joined the opposition african national congress in the early 1940's, devoting himself to peacefully ending apartheid. then in 1960, peaceful black demonstrators were killed by white south african police in the infamous massacre. mandela came to believe then that the only recourse was violence. >> it is futile for us to continue talking peace and nonviolence against a government whose reply is only savage attacks on an unarmed and defenseless people. >> he was arrested and sentenced to life for sabotage and conspiracy. he served most of his life on robben island, the alcatraz of south africa. a fellow prisoner said mandela never let his spirit die. >> he accepted that he may not live to see the victory. but he did not doubt that the freedom struggle would triumph. >> mandela was imprisoned for 27 years. on february 11, 1990, at the age of 71, he walked free. cbs news correspondent bob simon covered his release. >> the mandela limousine was a beat up toyota. >> archbishop desmond tutu says prison made the man. >> he was a fairly robust and aggressive young militant who became a generous, understanding person. >> i cherish the idea of a south africa where all south africans are equal. >> in 1993, mandela and the south african president who freed him, f.w. de klerk, shared the nobel peace prize. a year after, mandela became south africa's president. >> bread, water, for all. let freedom ring. i thank you. [applause] >> mandela chose to serve only one term. in the end he came to personify the struggle, a political prisoner who became president and save case south african nation. >> he could have easily led our country down the road of retribution and revenge, and we would have been up a creek. >> maya angelou new nelson mandela since 1960. >> nelson mandela represents the best any of us could hope for. the world is better for having known him. >> we begin with bono. >> i have been working for nelson mandela pretty much my whole life. since i was 18, u2 did the first anti-apartheid gig. the anti-apartheid movement was really big in dublin. i, his instruction to be that great generation, he made that incredible speech at trafalgar square where he said, the fight against extreme poverty is not the task of charity. poverty, like apartheid, is not natural. it is man-made. you know, you must be the generation that takes it on. that has been my instruction book. and i slowly got to know him over the years and received his guidance and his wisdom over the years, and even those last moments, even to go meet his maker. he will decide. the man who would stand up an entire day in a courtroom to protest over there being no african blacks in the room. he wanted everyone to see that a man could stand up, not have to sit down. a genius of the high ground. i am not sure if people understand that he had an operation on his tear ducts because when he worked on robben island in the salt mines, the salt burned out his tear ducts. this man, this figure who will be remembered not just in south africa, not just in africa, but china, asia, everywhere, the man who could move so many people to tears himself could not cry. i don't know why that really sticks with me, but, defiance and humor. wicked sense of humor. " what would you want to speak to an old man like me for?" i have been involved in probably, i have been involved with this idea called rock 'n roll. the great intention is to use music people and fashion people to raise money for his charity and children's charities. a great friend, naomi campbell, was organizing it, but it had gone horribly wrong in barcelona. there was an arena that fits 20,000 people and about 4000 people had turned up. they didn't understand. there was some confusion. a lot of people bailed from the project. the great man arrives, all my goodness, there is nobody there for him to make his speech. maybe they will be here by 8:00. we will wait. still, there was hardly anybody there. he has to leave -- wait, wait until it 8:30. 9:00, sure enough there are a few more spaniards. it is not the fault of spain. there was confusion. so we walked out, and there was this huge hangar of a place, empty. he goes, it is a great thing to have high expectations, and i had high expectations of coming to barcelona. we are staring at the ground. he looks at me and goes, you have more than exceeded my expectations, that you should leave your houses, leave your lives and come and see an old man and help him with his work. it is more than i could ever -- and i am looking at this seating of 5000. low expectations. i guess that is the way he saw the world. he was being real. he was being grateful. 10,000 people there, that was 10,000 people he was not expecting. >> it seems to me that if there was not a word for dignity nelson mandela would have defined it. >> you know, his name, his birth name means "troublemaker." they gave it to him because he broke a tree. he was a troublemaker. mischief. i think his partners are the same. there is mischief in his eyes. they are refusing to be saints. a defining moment of all our lives was nelson mandela's long walk to freedom. he taught us in his demeanor and in his poetry how to see our captors. and we all have them. it could be your boss, whatever. whoever it is. i heard a real insight about the long walk to freedom. i don't know if you know this. he was going to nationalize the mines, the diamonds, so the south african people would have those diamonds, they would own them, not these companies. the pragmatist said -- there is a little problem. what is the problem? there is a lot more of them in the ground than we are letting on. what are you saying? diamonds are tightly controlled because we want to keep their value high, and it is a mysterious thing, these companies know how to do it and we probably would not be very good at it. if people discovered it, then we have valueless pieces of glass. >> supply and demand. >> like that he went, ok. i guess that is why i so admire him, admired him, the pragmatic thing. no piety. absence of piety. >> and morgan freeman, who played him in the movie "invictus." >> when he first mentioned you should play him, were you in his presence? >> i was not. i was in south africa at the time. >> when did you first meet him? >> i met him after, right after he had left the presidency. the producer arranged it. he did not make this one. he had the rights. so he was, of course, orchestrating all my meetings with madiba. >> madiba is what mandela is called by his people. >> everyone in south africa calls him that, and everyone who knows him well calls him that. he organized a meeting. i told madiba, i need to see you as often as i can, to get close and hold your hand. he said, of course. over the years i saw him all around the world, and we would sit and talk, or i would just watch him and learn. >> what did you see? >> the basic thing that to me, in order to play a living human being, i think, is what goes on inside. how much energy is needed to be that person? and with mandela it is a very low-energy ebb. he's very quiet. inside, he is quiet. i learned that. he is commanding. he has a most commanding presence without being lordly. he doesn't walk into a room as nelson mandela. he walks into a room as madiba, as nelson. he doesn't take the room. the room gives itself. when he first got into robben island and they issued short pants to everyone except the one indian among them, he rejected his long pants. madiba said, no, put them on. we will all have long pants. he said to himself, they're going to call me mister. how did he do that? he hears the guard's child is sick. he says, how is your baby, is he all right? things like that. he doesn't feel like the big success we all hold him up as. he thinks of himself personally, deep inside, because of his family life. >> south africa became his family. >> yeah. so his obligations to his village, to winnie, his son, that weighs on him today. and it infuses his being with a sadness. >> william ernest henley. >> that poem was his favorite. as he explains, when he lost courage, when he felt like just giving up, to lie down and not get up again, he would recite it and it would give him what he needed to keep going. >> can you recite it? if you can't, here are some words. >> out of the night that covers me, black from pole to pole. i learned it when i was in school. i thank whatever gods there may be for my unconquerable soul. in the fell clutch of circumstance i have not winced or cried aloud. under the bludgeonings of chance, my head is bloody, but unbowed. beyond this place of wrath and tears looms but the shadow of the shade, and yet the menace of the years finds and shall find me unafraid. it matters not how strait the gate, how charged with punishments the scroll, i am the master of my fate, i am the captain of my soul. >> this is a magical moment in the history of this show to hear you do that. thank you. he had it and he memorized it, and it was his anchor when the winds were at their worst. >> he wrote this poem out and gave it, and i think it served the purpose it needed to serve. when the team visited robben island, this poem played in francois's head. i think he knew then, not only did they have to win, but they would. >> kurt campbell, former state department official. you got your phd at oxford and you had an opportunity to know people that knew mandela. tell me about them, and tell me about the man you learned about and then knew. >> first of all, it is great to be on this show. the world mourns. a million years ago, i was a student in oxford and i did my thesis on radical politics in south africa and ended up meeting almost every one of nelson mandela's compatriots who worked with him in the struggle to make a multi-racial south africa in the 1960's, before he was arrested. the interesting thing, even years later you meet these guys, they all live modest lives in angola, the outskirts of london the united states. they talk about their experiences. when the time came to talk about mandela, it was as if their gaze settled on something in the distance. everyone, despite their ideology, talk about him with reverence. they rarely talked about his policies. they talked about his character as a person, and how dominant a physical presence he was. people forget, he loved sports, he loved boxing, he used to practice boxing in his jail cell. he loved to follow the races. fascinated by all global sports. follow them closely. wanted the guards to update him on various sporting events. the cricketer tours that would come from great britain. it was a human touch during periods of unbelievable, stark hopelessness that kept these men alive for decades. it is easy to forget that now that he is a former president, but keeping hope alive when there was no hope is just such a remarkable thing. hopefully something that can animate our world going forward. >> you said he had these huge hands. >> when i first met him -- i spent a lot of time in southern africa. the first thing you realize about him is he was part of a noble family from that part of south africa. when you first see him, he is much taller than the average south african. well over six feet tall. when he first got out of prison, despite the heavy labor and the hard times, he was ramrod straight. when you saw him, it almost took you a back that, if you focused on him, he was unusually fit and his hands were thick. i was with the new australian prime minister, tony abbott, who himself was a former boxer at oxford. he had a look in his hands, he could get up at any minute and hit you with an upper cut. >> you met a lot of leaders. he had what larger than most? >> i have to say, it is interesting. connecting a little bit with asia, one of my responsibilities when i was in the state department was i was the person that interacted with, when she was under house arrest, with aung san suu kyi. what was interesting about her, at one moment she could be extraordinarily vulnerable, he would be drawn to her, but in the next moment she could be tough when it was necessary. i found the exact same thing with president mandela. he was deeply human, extremely compassionate, very empathetic for people. his family, people around him, cared how people felt. very unusual in politics, as we know. at the next moment, when you had to make the tough decision, he would make it. >> i have often found among leaders i have interviewed over the years, if they were a dreamer, if, in fact they were men or women who had a sense of enormous compassion, there was at the heart of them, at the core, a capacity to be as tough and secondly as analytical as anybody you ever met. >> i like that. that is exactly what i saw in him. what was also interesting, you look at other leaders, i was always struck when we used to travel with president clinton, he had the common touch, he knew the people that work the elevators, that drove the cars, they cleaned up the rooms after we left. mandela was exactly the same way. he knew that one audience was the person sitting across the table from him or meeting with the queen or whoever, but he also knew that the people behind the scenes that facilitated the events were just as important, and he could be more open and compassionate and engaged with those people than he often was with the leaders that he met. that is a remarkable quality. frankly, i don't believe in any way that that was an act. that is who he was, down to the core. >> i also found that the leaders i think he represents, obviously for all of us, represents the expression of courage and leadership and all the best qualities that you can imagine in a human being. the capacity to live as he had in prison, and to come out with a certain sense of grace about him, the capacity for reconciliation. also, leaders, it seemed to me, have always had the ability to calculate risk and be willing to have confidence in their own capacity to overcome risk. >> yeah. i agree with that. in a way, when i interacted within the most was right when he came out of prison, getting ready to run. he was aware in a way i have rarely seen political leaders, he knew the tolerances, what the system could manage. he was as effective speaking to his own supporters about what was going to be necessary to accommodate, to live in the new south africa, as he was to international investors or to whites that were worried about the future. one other thing. the other thing that i would say about him is, and again, you see this with other leaders. just beneath the surface there was a little bit, a little touch of loneliness to him. you could kind of sense. surrounded by a lot of people, but the closest of relationships, that handful of people, he was not with them sometimes. he was imprisoned during a difficult period, a lot of hard changes, some alienation. i think that marked him. so the incredible combination of being essentially optimistic, how would we focused, but when the cameras were down and he was sitting alone, having a cup of tea or just reflecting, you could sense there was a little bit of sadness to him. >> sadness and a sense of the burden they had to bear as well. >> that is right. >> at this time, we remember stories. a story you already knew, that says something about how stories happen, that he went to london and to buckingham palace to see the queen and they expected him to stay for 30 minutes and he stayed for more than two hours. later, somebody with him, i guess, when he got a call from the queen and took the call and they talked on the phone, the story goes that when he hung up the phone and said, goodbye, your majesty, his friend turned to him and said, what did the queen say? she said, please call me elizabeth. there are only three people in the world who called her elizabeth. her sister and her husband and nelson mandela. the other story is how he at the time of his inaugural had his jailers sitting there in the audience. you would be familiar with that. >> what was remarkable, and many of the people around him initially were actually uncomfortable and thought this gesture would be misunderstood. but some of the people who imprisoned him, some of the people that on a daily basis kind of subjected him to terrible physical labor for years, were there in the front row. what was astonishing, if you see the exchanges during this period, there was a familiarity and respect that had grown over time between them. in the end, in a sense it was as if mandela was their jailer, even though he was imprisioned. he was the one who looked after them, and they looked to him for grace, which he delivered in a remarkable way. they were comfortable and honored to be there, and he was respectful of them. it was from those early associations. remember, the guys who came to power with mandela, the armed wing of the african national congress was called the spear of the nation, and these guys were warriors. they had been fighting underground against the apartheid regime, so they were in no mood to go to a situation where they are sitting down and breaking bread with the former enemy. think of how hard it is here in the united states. mandela insisted that these people be treated with respect. he kept on members of the previous administration. he insisted the military integrate, but integrate in a way that white military officers remained in power. it was remarkable. to tell you the truth, his aides were initially profoundly uncomfortable and worried he was on the wrong foot as he got started. >> that was the story that came out of "invictus," the movie made with morgan freeman playing nelson mandela. >> the reason that was so wonderful, rugby until that point was considered a white sport in south africa. african south africans did not play rugby very much. those who did were looked on a little bit with contempt. he championed that team. he met with the captain. he inspired him, i think personally. when i think of a scene that has inspired me a movie perhaps more than any other, i really encourage people to look at it. look at the sit-down between the rugby captain and morgan freeman. the subtle dance that they initially engage each other in around leadership, how to motivate a group of people in an impossible set of circumstances. it is the best example of leadership i have ever seen in a movie. i have to say, what is fascinating about him is that there was a period in his life where he did study and think deeply about marxism. there was a period where the resistance movement in southern africa was about the forces of history and deeply animated by support from the outside. the great irony is that in the theology, early theology of the resistance movement, the idea was that the great forces of history, machine and agrarian development, really ruled out the role of the individual. how ironic it is that probably the most influential individual of the last 50 years came out of that system, and it was nelson mandela. >> here is an excerpt from a 1993 conversation with nelson mandela, which we will show in its entirety tomorrow night. >> help us understand what it was like for you, and how does a man maintain his strength, his belief, his integrity on an island or you have been sentenced to life in prison? >> there is nothing as inspiring as to know that the ideas for which you have sacrificed will triumph in the end. one of the things we were constantly aware of throughout, 24 hours a day, was the fact that the ideas of liberation were much alive. that our people inside the country were fighting back. that the international community, your respective of the government in power, liberal or conservative, fully supported our struggle. that was a source of tremendous inspiration. it helps the morale of all of us. and therefore, we were very strengthened inside prison because of the knowledge that our incarceration was not in vain. to play our part as part of a greater effort was possible. this sustained us. and to share these experiences was a tremendous experience. >> haim saban is here, the largest single shareholder of the spanish language network univision. he is a strong supporter of the democratic party and one of its largest individual donors. this weekend, the brookings institution will hold its annual saban forum in washington. the israeli-palestinian peace process, nuclear negotiations with iran, and other subjects will be at the top of the agenda. i am pleased to have haim saban at the table. >> thank you. >> that me talk about israel. it is said that prime minister netanyahu in his fierce opposition to this interim agreement between iran and the united states is not doing a great service to the united states and the effort to find some possibility of going from an interim agreement to a final agreement. >> the prime minister is doing well to keep the issue of iran at the top of the agenda. they could have been other ways to do it. i am not suggesting that he picked the best way, but that is the way he picked. it is semantics. because the fundamentals are the following. president obama made it very clear, iran will not have nuclear weapons. that is his red line. prime minister netanyahu said, iran will not have nuclear weapons capability. that is his red line. but the difference between those two creates a certain gap. is that gap fundamental? no, because the bottom line is the same. they have different red lines, but they have the same bottom line. iran will not be a nuclear weapon country. this is what we have to remember, that israel and the united states are completely aligned on that issue. there might be different path to get to that result, and there might be disagreements along the way between friends, but the bottom line, which is what is really important in life, is completely aligned. >> others come to this table and make the following argument. why now? the reason the iranians are talking is because of the sanctions. why not tie long more sanctions so they will not make an interim agreement that will say, ok, we can't live with the sanctions anymore, what is it you want? and therefore not only stop, freeze, but get them to dismantle the centrifuges? that would be the result if you double up on the sanctions? >> the people who sit across the table from our negotiators are ideologues for the most part. and we are trying to reason with them based on our way of life. it doesn't work. however, with rouhani there, and by the way, we had a ahmadinejad and now a smiling rouhani. i don't know how different they are. this agreement is both a good agreement and a bad agreement. i am not saying it is very good or very bad. it all depends on what happens at the end of the six months or if they extend it by another six months. if, at the end at six months or extension of six months, there is an agreement that guarantees that iran for at least 10 years is -- whatever sanctions you apply, whatever inspectors you send, is limited in time, but iran for at least 10 years will dismantle its nuclear capabilities, it is a great agreement. if there is not such an agreement, it is a very bad agreement. nobody knows. should we try? absolutely. we should absolutely try. and i think the president did the right thing by reaching out and trying to make a deal. and i don't think that additional sanctions -- all those people that talk about additional sanctions are the same people who said sanctions don't work. these are the same people. so make up your mind. do they work, or don't they work? >> what does the prime minister believe? you know the mind of the prime minister. you know him, and you know people who are opponents of his. what do they think will come out of this? are they, in the end, prepared to give it a chance? >> i can't speak for the prime minister. i don't know what he thinks. >> you know people who know what he thinks. >> i spent quality time with the prime minister. i can tell you what he said to me, which is what he also said in public. he didn't go beyond it. i asked him point-blank, do you really have the military capability to take out the iran nuclear facilities? he said, i will tell you what i say all the time -- how i get there is for me to know. and for you to guess. the bottom line is, iran is not going to be nuclear. that is what he says. >> there are many people who believe that they do not have the possibility to do anything other than to delay for six months or a year. that is the possibility, and that is the military potential they have. >> let me tell you something about the idf. in 1948, 500,000 -- we are sitting here with one of the most advanced militaries in the world, after seven wars which they won every single one of them. i don't know what they have or don't have. i know that the israeli people and jewish people around the world can rely on the idf. >> there are now israeli- palestinian negotiations taking place. i know what the issues are. you have to do with territory, the right of return, jerusalem, borders, and in some case with the jordan river. but the essential question is security, and you just laid out the most important thing in israel's security. what the israeli defense force has become. when will israel feel secure enough so that it can make a kind of agreement so that it would ensure a two-state solution? many are arguing now that that idea is slipping away. because of the demographics, and other factors. >> it is a very, dated issue. when you ask me when will israel feel secure, a statement by golda mehr comes to mind when she said, we will forgive you for killing our children. we will never forgive you for forcing us to kill yours. what i'm trying to say, israel is reaching out for peace. not because there is a big love between the arabs and the jews, but because it is in israel's interest. even hawks like prime minister netanyahu understand that. against many in his own party he said, two states for two people. now, the devil is in the details, but in the name of the government of israel benjamin netanyahu made that statement. >> the present secretary of state, the present president, the former president bill clinton, former secretary of state hillary clinton, and most americans in the leadership, most believe that settlements, increasing settlements are not in the interest of finding an agreement between israelis and palestinians. where do you come down on that, and where do you come down on sharing jerusalem as a capital? >> you are asking my personal opinion? >> your personal opinion. >> my right-wing hawkish friends are going to be very mad. i am going to tell you that jerusalem is already divided. jews don't go to the arab sections or very rarely go. when they go, they get stones thrown at them. so i believe that the clinton parameters are the right parameters. 1967 borders, territory swaps. >> the same equivalency. >> exactly. 1967 borders with territory swaps, dividing jerusalem and finding some arrangement so that jews can go to the holiest place in the jewish religion. jews are not allowed to go to the temple mount because the mosque is there. that is outrageous. places of worship should be open to everybody who wants to worship. but israel does not allow jews to go out of respect for the muslims. tell me another country that behaves like that. >> your argument is more with the government of israel than with the palestinians? >> not true. >> it is true. you are prepared if palestinians would accept the deal president clinton offers. the government of israel would not accept the offer president clinton offered. when he offered it, yasir arafat turned it down. some say that later he regretted that. >> you know who told him not to accept it? even though he changed his mind since? the head of the palestinians told arafat not to accept it. >> you are arguing for a deal -- >> do you know that for a fact? >> we can find out by asking, would they accept the 67 deal offered by president clinton at camp david? why don't we do that? >> for the israelis, we will do that at the forum with pleasure. for the israelis, for the majority of israelis, of course there are right-wing hawks that don't agree -- >> when you say right-wing hawks, do you mean prime minister netanyahu? >> no. >> how would you characterize him? >> i think he was a right-wing hawk. look, i saw a tape of benjamin netanyahu may be 25, 30 years old. he says, there is no need for a palestinian state. jordan is a palestinian state. he has come a long way. give him some credit. he has come a long way. so for the israelis, the majority of israelis, it is all about three things. security, security, and security. >> exactly. if you look at the israeli prime minister rabin, he went to oslo, signed an agreement, shook hands with yasser arafat. because he believed israel was strong enough to take care of itself. he began to believe it was in israel's interest to have an agreement with the palestinians, as hard as a was for him to accept that and shake hands. >> very hard for him. >> when they were standing in front of the white house, he turned to shimon peres, and said, you go shake his hand. >> but he believed in the strength of the israeli defense force. everybody understands the security interest is understandable and significant. in the middle east, you are in the middle of a number of countries that are hostile or a number of organized groups like hezbollah and hamas, and iran. >> two factors have changed since 1995. number one, rockets. they didn't use rockets in those days. and if i address that for a second, the number one threat in the event of a pullout is over the ridge where they ca shoot rockets at the airport. all they need to do issued two rockets a day into the airport. israel comes to a screeching halt, and the second thing that has changed is terrorism now has a different phase than it did then. then, it was stones. now they blow up school buses. that is what they do. these two facts, if they exist in 1995, believe me, rabin's position would have been -- rabin is the one who said not to give back the jordan valley. >> i am not sure netanyahu wants to give back the jordan valley either. he said, you don't give back the jordan valley. >> these conversations, like you and i are having, have been had in the middle east and in washington and in other capitals. the question is, do you believe the israelis have confidence in president obama? >> very good question. can we separate the people from the various factions of the government? i think that when the moment of truth comes, president obama has the ability to build confidence within israel. >> when you say that, that suggests it is not there now. >> 77% of israelis at the moment based on the latest polls think that this nuclear deal that was done with iran was a terrible deal and does not include -- >> that is one thing. therefore, do they believe that they can't depend on the united states? >> no leader in his right mind would ever outsource the security and the existential fact to another country, no matter how close. >> thank you for coming. >> thank you for having me. >> thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪ >> the following is a paid program. the opinions and views expressed do not reflect those of bloomberg lp, its affiliates, or its employees. >> the following is a paid advertisement from star vista entertainment and time life. >> here's johnny. >> from the moment he stepped on stage to the day he said goodbye the king of late night was johnny carson.
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>> rose: welcome to the program, tonight we remember nelson mandela, who died in south africa at age 95, joining me the former mayor of new york, david dinkins, the former editor of time magazine who wrote a biography on nelson mandela, stengel and his long time friend, jerry inzerillo. >> it was his genetic endowment what he learned in that moment of time. the great walter zulu who was really his mentor once told me a lovely story when young nelson mandela who first came to johannesburg to study law walked into zulu ice real estate office in soweto we were just trying to become a mass movement and one day a mass leader walked into my office. >> rose: also part of this program, a conversation with nelson mandela which took place here on this program in 1993. >> and the lesson is that the method of the people, the method of political method to be used, part determined by the oppressor himself, if the oppres oppressos peaceful means, we will never result to violence. it is when the oppressor in addition to repressive policies uses violence that the oppress have had no alternative b
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nelson mandela. i am mark crumpton. that is it for bottom line. have a great weekend. i will see you next time. ♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." >> we begin our coverage of the death of nelson mandela with a -- the cbs evening news. >> he was born july 18, 1918. him a namegave meaning "troublemaker," but later a school teacher in nelson. at 23.d to johannesburg he became one of the nation's first black lawyers and joined the opposition african national congress in the early 1940's, devoting himself to peacefully ending apartheid. 1960, peaceful black demonstrators were killed by white south african police in in infamous massacre. men alike came to believe the only reef force -- mandela came to believe then that the only recourse was violence. >> it is futile for us to continue talking peace and a governmentgainst whose reply is only savage attacks on an unarmed and defenseless people. >> he was arrested and sentenced to life for sabotage and conspiracy. he served most of his life on island, the alcatraz of south africa. a fellow prisoner said mandela
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reign. god bless africa. i thank you. >> nelson mandela, the former president of south africa, dive -- died today. diba was a manan for all seasons. iner his release from prison 1990, he was awarded the nobel andst -- nobel peace prize served as president for five years. the power of mandela could not be captured in a snapshot. it was also the man himself. he was a quiet man in many ways, but with great power to influence. a father of six who is also a father of a nation. he was born in 1918 in a small village of the eastern cape of south africa. his work against apartheid policies grew in the coming years. in 1963, he was put on trial for plotting to overthrow the government with pilots. he said at the trial, i have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. it is an ideal which i hope to live for and to achieve. but if i need be, it is an ideal for which i am prepared to die. after he stepped down as president, he worked tirelessly to promote his agenda of the quality -- equality. to engage in qu
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companies shaping our world. i'm emily chang. let's get to the rundown. nelson mandela died at the age of 95 and tributes are pouring in around the globe.